Throughout the month of December, GiveTeens20® interns are discussing their ideas of the American Dream and how their potential career relates to this. In addition, a video from the organization GROCO highlights how successful individuals in their career field have helped broaden their American Dream.
There is a well-known saying that “children are our future.” In my eyes, the reality of the American Dream grows with each generation. Each set of children brings a new set of ideals to the table that refine the meaning of the American Dream. Hence, it only makes sense that we give these children an enriched education so they can grow up and change the world.
I am proud to say that I am growing up in a family where education is given a high priority. My parents have encouraged me to engage in programs such as GiveTeens20® (GT20) that have given me exposure to various careers. Over time, my career ideas and goals have changed greatly from wanting to become just a doctor, engineer, or lawyer. Thanks to GT20, I now know that veterinary science is not the only way to help animals – something I want to be a part of my future career. Already, there are many companies that are working toward creating and maintaining duties for animals that allow them to gain the rights and care they deserve, such as K9s for Warriors. I understand that my options are limitless- I can be a journalist writing hard hitting exposes; I can create Digital Media to help gain awareness for nonprofits that help animals; I can be an entrepreneur linking people of need to furry friends.
Nevertheless, I recognize that there are children who have not been given the same exposure and opportunities as me, whether those children be from a low-income family or are unempowered. For example, many girls in today’s society are still reluctant to pursue a career in male-dominated fields such as STEM. This an issue that must be tackled immediately, for they have so much potential to bring to the table. We can all change our future by helping those who will shape it in the years to come- children.
Below is a link to an interview by GROCO of Tim Ritchie, CEO of The Tech Museum. His work has inspired me and other children to keep working toward my career goal and push away from external pressure to purse a typical career of that in the Bay Area.
Esha Gautam is a junior at Washington High School. Ever since
childhood, everytime someone asked her “what do you want to be when you grow
up?” her answer would change- from actress to astronaut to anesthesiologist.
Now, as she approaches college, she wants to find her career fit. Although she
is undecided about what career path she wants to pursue, she knows animals are
going to be a big part of it. GT20 is helping her find that path.
For the next four weeks, GiveTeens20® is partnering with GROCO to highlight the American Dream and showcasing the American Dream videos on the GROCO website. Throughout the month, GiveTeens20® will be posting intern blogs highlighting their own American Dream and what it means to them.
The idea of the American Dream has changed drastically over time.From a white-picket fence-esque lifestyle to landing a successful job, the generalized American Dream has become more individualized and unique.
Growing up in Silicon Valley, the American Dream was something that was never really discussed. Rather, the norm was to become successful,have the nice house and a family. The individuality of the American Dream was rare, and I was one of those few who perceive it differently. To me, the American Dream is defined as being successful in every aspect, being kind,considerate and dedicated, having a quality education and equal opportunity.These altogether create the American Dream.
The biggest part of the American Dream that stands out to me is having a quality education. Everyone residing in the United States should have access to quality education, no matter the area. All materials and supplies should be state of the art and appropriate for each child. Every teacher should be passionate about what they do and have the desire to create a difference in the world, despite who their class is filled with. This in itself is what made me want to pursue teaching.
From a young age, I knew that I wanted to be a teacher. Over time,the ideas of what kind of teacher I wanted to be evolved based on my changing morals. Thanks to the classes I have taken about teaching, I’ve learned more about developmentally appropriate teachings and how they should be implemented into child based learning and development. Because of this, my ideology and morals about teaching and education and flourished. However, I always knew that I was going to help make a difference in the world by educating my children on more than just basic school subjects, but in other ways too, such as manners,how to be kind, etc. Working in the classroom now, I am already working toward that goal. It is something I hold very close to my heart continuously. This proves why I believe the American Dream should also consist of a quality education for all.
Highlighted in the GROCO website, Sebastian Thrun shares the same ideals as I. Thrun emphasizes the importance of higher education and the opportunities it opens for those who pursue it. Higher education is more than just being costly; it opens doors to new opportunities, experiences and challenges that those who do not pursue higher education may have not gain. Below is a link to the Thrun interview; you are going to love it:
With more people like Thrun, we can all help create a equal,quality education for all and help make the world a better place.
Lily understands the pressure that comes along with being successful and
choosing the right career path. However, with guidance from great
teachers, friends and family, she was able to find the right one for her
as a Child Development major. Lily enjoys hanging out with friends and
family, watching Netflix and traveling on her free time. She is
currently a Child Development major at Ohlone College, and hopes to earn
her Ph.D. in Education.
While on my way to the Campo Di Bocce Event center to attend the GiveTeens20® Pearls Of Wisdom Fundraiser, I did not expect it to be as fancy as it was. As I entered, the fourteen-foot decorated walls were there to greet me. Once I made my way to the prize display room, I saw dozens of tables, prize description posters, and even a Porsche! I said to myself “Man… these guys are not playing around.” There were even waiters and waitresses offering me incredible fancy foods, the kind you see in fancy restaurants. The forties musician Frank Sinatra was being played, which added even more of a fancy/classical effect on the event. Even auctions were going on, which was something I did not expect at all. Luckily, I was able to get some input from a few event attendees.
Q: What do you think about the event so far?
A: “It’s amazing. Kathy told me about her idea years ago and I support because it really helps teenagers such as yourself, find a career fit.” (Ruth Bauer, Health Teacher.)
A: “It’s cool. Very classy.” (Jeff from Akira Games)
A: “First time being here. It’s elegant. Inspiring. Working in Career Development, It’s nice to see someone making their own organization to help people achieve their goals. ” (Stephanie Moore, Writer and Career development)
It’s evident that the participants who attended supported the goals of GIveTeens20 and Gladeo, such as helping teenagers find their career fit.
While roaming around brainstorming on what to write, I had one question in mind for those who participated at this event. The question being “If you could tell your teenage self one thing right now, what would it be?”
Pankaj J: “As a teen, you should explore multiple areas. Never give up. There is a place for everyone. Best honest with yourself, start early, and planning is important. Passion, dedication, focus.” (IT Applications, Palo Alto)
The words of Pankaj were very inspiring and were some words to take in to remind myself of everyday. Writing is my career choice, but down the road my interests may change because I may become more versatile and escape my comfort zone. One day I’d ike to be the writer of a television show but the only way I am going to get there is by passion, dedication, and focus. Nothing is guaranteed.
The Auction was probably my favorite part of the event. Not to mention, Kathy Laidlaw, our founder won four tickets to a Warriors game with Suite seating in Oracle. People also won vacations, vehicles, and items too! An intern of GT20, Lily Alder also told a very inspiring story of her upbringing, and what she’s doing to achieve her goals. Growing up, she always had a love for educating, and soon enough she realized that teaching was a passion of hers. She was told teachers aren’t paid very well by many, but for her it wasn’t about the money, it was because teaching is what she loved to do, and no amount of money could ever change that.
I would also do what I love, no matter my income. Why do something that doesn’t make you happy and receive a paycheck for it, when you could what you love while not obsessing over your salary. I’d rather be poor and happy than rich and sad.
Grace and Michelle Cho Interview
Being a GT20 intern, I was luckily able enough to interview Grace and Michelle Cho, founders of the Gladeo nonprofit organization. Grace Cho is responsible for being Vice President of Deal Analysis and Brand Finance at 20th Century Fox Film. Michelle Cho is responsible for being the founder and Executive Director of Gladeo. Not only was I able to interview them, I was able to get some great advice also.
Q: Why did you both decide to partner up with GiveTeens20®?
Because of Kathy. Our vision and values are similar. Kathy puts kids first and is very collaborative.
K. I can see why it would attract so many people, because helping teenagers find their career fit is an important thing. As teenagers today, many of us are confused about what we want to do in life or our place in the world.Organizations like these benefit us as teens because we get an idea of what we’d like to do, or what our strengths are.
Q: If you could tell your teenage self one thing, what would it be?
Don’t be scared changing your mind, and if you do, don’t be hard on yourself for doing so.
K. I’ve always had an idea about writing being what I want to do in
life, but the thought of changing my career has never entered my mind. The
future is uncertain, and my interests may possibly change. Hypothetically
speaking, if my interests were to change, I won’t ever be too hard on myself
for making such a critical decision in my life, because change is a natural
Toward the end of the event after our interview, I received some good advice about becoming a writer from both Grace and Michelle Cho.
Blogging. Blogging would become a great habit for me because it would help me become a better writer. I was also told, “Write it about whatever you want, because people would admire a teenager taking the time doing so.” Ever since then, besides my GT20blog, I also have a blog on Medium that I have been working on. I love to do all I can to make myself the best writer possible.
When it came to college,I was confused on what I am supposed to major in. Was it Journalism? Cinema?Creative Writing? No. It was Communications. I was told Communications is a very demanding field these days, especially with the media and entertainment fields. I plan to major in Communications and possibly double major in another aspect of writing to make my resume more impressive.
The advice which stuck with me all night and to this day, was to have fun. I find that to be a great point, because why do something you’re not passionate about? “Write what you want to write about, don’t listen to what other people tell you to write about.” As I exited Campo Di Bocce event center, I had a major reflection.Arrived with medium expectations and departed with an excellent impression of this event and how GiveTeens20® is achieving the goal of helping teens find their career ‘fit’.
Networking can be a very big word and may even feel overwhelming when you hear it. It certainly brings up some questions. What does it mean to network? Do I need to have work experience first?
Throughout my 20+ years in the work world, I’ve identified a few key things that I have found to be really helpful and that also take some of the pressure off and I’d like to share these tips with you!
What is Networking?
When it comes down to it, networking is simply just having a conversation with someone. It’s connecting. It’s developing a relationship. When you are connecting with others, it helps to think of the connection as symbiotic; meaning that the connection goes both ways. This person may have information that can help you and you may have information that can help them (even at a later point).
One definition of networking that I like is: “interact with other people to exchange information and develop contacts, especially to further one’s career.”
Pretty simple, right?
How to Talk About Yourself
When you are just getting started in your career you won’t always be clear about a purpose or mission in life, so just start with where you are today. It can feel a little awkward talking about yourself at first but the more you do it, the more comfortable and confident you will get.
A great place to start is by creating a mission statement; no matter where you are in life. This can be related to your interests in volunteer work, customer service, or work that you know you want to do in the future.
Here are a couple of examples of mission statements, “I help customers to optimize their XYZ product so that they can have a stellar customer experience!” or “I give back to my community so that I can help to enhance the quality of life for those struggling to make ends meet” or “My mission is to deliver innovative ideas that contribute to the evolution of XYZ technology.”
You can also just focus on your interests or top skills. What excites you or makes you want to jump out of bed in the morning? What do you love to do? What tasks are you doing when you feel most productive and useful? These are all great clues about work that you are naturally good at or love to do and can more easily talk about with others. When you share more about your passions and interests, people will often want to know more about you and to help you along your path.
Still anxious about the idea of networking? Just start by asking questions. Ask people about themselves: what do they do for work? How was their weekend? What do they love to do in their free time? When you start the conversation, people will often start asking about you too!
How to Market Yourself
Marketing yourself can include a few things and it may be simpler than you think.
It can mean having an online presence. LinkedIn® is a wonderful resource for professionals. I always recommend that my clients keep an eye out for connection opportunities on LinkedIn®. An online presence can also mean having a website or a blog. Keep it professional yet informative—it’s also a great way to show more of your personality or style.
If you have a resume—get feedback, either from a professional resume writer or a mentor who can help you. When you are applying for jobs this is your ticket to landing an interview so you’ll want to make a great first impression.
Marketing yourself also means just simply showing up where you’ll have opportunities to connect. Join clubs, attend events, volunteer, or join outings. Just showing up can be the biggest part of getting connected with others. The key is to get in the habit of sharing more about yourself and what you are up to in the world so people know how to connect you (but also be curious about others). If you don’t enjoy joining groups, find an influencer—someone who can help to connect you with others. This could be someone you’ve worked for, a teacher, a mentor, or just someone that you admire and who is open to helping you.
Once you’ve made a connection, follow-up. This part is really important. People won’t know how to help you if you don’t ask. Thank them for their time and mention something you liked about the conversation or about their interests. If you are reaching out via email, there’s a great article with email templates from one of my favorite Career resources, The Muse, here: The Muse – Networking Email Templates.
Shannon empowers professionals to discover what they truly want in their careers so they can do fulfilling work on their own terms. www.shannon-rey.com
Chicago was never really on my radar while searching for colleges. I always imagined myself going to a school somewhere in California: a place that is familiar and close to home. Never did I see myself in a city with angry taxi drivers, crowded streets, and loud trains. Unfortunately, transitioning from the Bay to Chicago was not an easy process; however, it was an enjoyable and fascinating process.
When I told my parents that I wanted to study film, they were mostly supportive. The obstacle that I had to overcome was getting into a good school where I can pursue my film major. Los Angeles was my first choice, and for a long time my only choice. It made sense to me, since LA is home to Hollywood. When I got accepted to DePaul University in Chicago, I started to second guess myself. I was so set on LA for school that I never considered any other area outside of Southern California. “Hmmm, Chicago? I don’t know, a crowded city with loud streets,” I thought to myself. “Doesn’t seem like my type of environment.”
For once, I felt like I was presented with a decision I had full control over. Should I go to LA? I’m only a 2-hour plane ride away from my parents. I can eat my mom’s cooking and sleep on my heavenly memory foam mattress whenever I felt like it. Or should I go to Chicago? Where I am a 6-hour plane ride away and would only be able to visit during the breaks. I took a leap of faith and decided to challenge myself, force myself out of my comfort zone. I accepted the offer from DePaul and decided to continue my future in Chicago for the next 4 years.
The realization of going to DePaul didn’t hit me until summer break after high school began and my decision started to evoke concern and second guesses. Spending my summer preparing for college and dorm life, I started to feel anxious as the days counted down. Sure, I was excited for college, but I didn’t know what to expect. I started to fear leaving my parents and move halfway across the country.
Then move-in day came. Feelings of loneliness and nervousness overwhelmed me for the first week of school. There were too many people for my comfort and the urban environment made me feel uneasy. But then the realization hit. I am going to spend the next four years or more in this city and I need to start appreciating it. I need to embrace the city. I need to embrace the crowd. I need to embrace the crazy people on the subway.
Tall buildings didn’t make me nauseous anymore; instead I started to appreciate the architecture and beauty. The crowd didn’t trigger claustrophobia anymore; instead it garnished the city with life and prosperity. Since then, my outlook of the city has become positive and forced optimism transformed into innate appreciation. I have made friends that I know I can count on and enjoy my classes and professors. I have even already started looking for apartments for next year. I know that it’s only the first quarter, but spending the next 11 quarters in the city is what I am most excited about.
An enthusiastic mind is what ultimately led to what type of student I am today. I decided to take a shot in the dark and experience what an urban setting feels like. I took the risk and I learned to adapt to the new environment. Fortunately, it ended up being something that I would enjoy. Nine weeks later, I finally feel like I am at home.
Kevin Leonard is currently a freshman at DePaul University. He is pursuing a film major with concentration in directing. On his spare time, Kevin watches movies, takes photos, and likes trying different brands of cereal.
If there is one thing I excel in, it’s probably the ability to stress over everything. Even during the summer, where you would think it wasn’t humanly possible to stress over anything, I was. Summer classes, the ACT’s, college applications, volunteering, and my resume were just some of the things running through my mind. When I wasn’t stressing, I usually spent my time envying my little brothers who spent their evenings tackling Naruto into the ground repeatedly on their PS3.
So when my father mentioned his upcoming business trip to China, I let myself fantasize about traveling overseas and escaping the pool of stress I created for myself. “Dad, can’t I come with you too?” I asked as I imagined speeding through the sky with a bowel of ramen before me.
My little dream bubble was popped not a minute later when I got a call from CT2 Prep, an ACT tutoring company, who reminded me of my interest in receiving tutoring. And like that, my little China dream was forgotten. What I didn’t expect was for my dad to take my request into consideration and buy me a ticket. Luckily though, that feeling didn’t stay for long after being on the receiving end of an hour-long lecture from my older sister who told me to “stop stressing because it was summer for god’s sake and to start living!”
Thanks to her, I was sitting in the window seat of ChinaAir two weeks later with a bowl of ramen in front of me as I bounced onto my seat excitedly.
Cupping and Turtles
Michael Phelps made Cupping famous when he appeared in the Olympics with dark bruised circles on his back. Well, the process of getting those marks is scary creepy. During our stay in China, my dad’s friend managed to convince my dad of getting cupping done at massage place near our hotel. You see, after lying down and getting all comfy (with your shirt off of course), a professional comes in with a bucket of twelve cups and matches. He lit up the match, placed it in the cup, and took the fire out after it blared to life inside of it.
He then stuck the cup onto your back. It hurts and right after it’s done, your skin starts turning red and swelling inside the cup. This method is repeated eleven more times until your back is covered completely to the point where you look like a turtle. After a couple of moments, the cups are taken away with a forceful grab and you are free to go. The marks will stay there for at least a week and will help heal any sore muscles you have and help your blood flow more. Props to Phelps for doing it though! The process is very freaky… I was about to get it done too, but after I saw the process I was like “Heck No! I’ll just start working out again!”
Tagging along with my Dad on his business trip was definitely an educational experience. Not only did I meet a lot of his clients and co-workers, but I also got to learn a lot about business etiquette. To my surprise, I learned that offering water to a client or co-worker was the best way to show them respect when they make the time to visit your office.
Moreover, I learned how important it is to plan ahead. I often questioned my dad why he would often meet up with new clients when he already had clients, and he would always reply by saying that “Clients will often agree to what you say, but when it comes down to it, will follow their own choices.” As a result, we had to meet up with new clients to prepare materials that we needed and might not have gotten our hands on from the previous client.
Fish and Lots of It
When my dad first told me that his friend would be taking us out to dinner, I was worried. I mean I’m not a fish fan, and this guy loved that stuff. We then ordered straw mushrooms, tree mushrooms, Chinese cabbage called Bok Choy, Cauliflower, Chinese beans, and varieties of fish and noodles in different shapes. Although there were tons of different types of fishes added into the broth, I was able to avoid eating too much fish by getting myself the soup from corners of the bowl.
Personally, my favorite part was trying all the different types of noodles. Some were thick and long and others were round and thin, and the best part was that they all had a different taste to them!
I love motorcycles, much to my dad’s distaste, and China was full of them. The streets were always full of motorcycles and get this, there were even motorcycle taxis! This was basically a dream come true for me and a nightmare for my dad who always worried about finding excuses to keep me from getting on one. Luckily for him, I didn’t get to ride on one but I was able to ride the Tuk Tuk.
The name of the motorcycle is just as unique as the motorcycle itself. It is a big three wheeled motorcycle that looks like a regular motorcycle in the front but like the back seat of a windowless car in the back. It was definitely a lot less dangerous than normal motorcycles, but it still felt pretty cool to be riding in.
Being able to visit another country, especially China, was an amazing experience for me. I got to meet different people, see the culture, and try out amazing foods! Doing well in school and caring about our college applications is definitely important, but I think that being able to experience a lot of different situations is also something that will help you grow as a person. I would recommend the trip to anyone, as it is one that would be forever unforgettable!
It is no easy task trying to decide what you want to be when you ‘grow up.’ This becomes even more complicated when you have to write a ten-page research paper on said area of interest. For my sophomore English class, I had to research a career that I wanted to pursue, which could be fun for some people who have known since they were nine years old exactly what they wanted to do with their lives. Unfortunately, I was never that person. It is safe to say that I was dreading this assignment from the moment my English teacher brought it up.
She tried her best to ease us into it by saying that we would take things step by step and work on finding people in certain jobs to interview. The following week we had to come up with our top three career choices and write them down on these posters that would be displayed in class for everyone to see. I watched as my classmates wrote down occupations such as physical therapist, non-invasive cardiologist, police officer, etc. All the while I was struggling to brainstorm two possible careers. I felt like there was something wrong with me. Why was it difficult for me to find something I was even remotely interested in while those around me clearly had it all together? I knew I had to take this assignment seriously, so I started researching careers.
To play it safe I search online for high paying stable jobs. I thought it was best to be practical and stay true to that anecdote that we have all heard: go to school, get a good job, make money, and be happy (in no particular order of course). As I was looking up careers, I stumbled upon one that caught my attention- Chief Executive Officer (CEO). I was relieved, I had finally found a job that was stable, paid well, and that I could see myself doing. Going forward with the assignment, I interviewed two amazing women in this position who gave me great advice. For a while, I thought that this was what I wanted. I had convinced myself that being a CEO or at least working in business was perfect for me.
However, the world of business was far from ideal for me because I was doing it for all the wrong reasons. I was being safe instead of being ambitious and going after something else that would make me happier. What this something else was I did not know exactly, yet I knew that I would be miserable if I just decided on a field of study based on the potential salary. I know how the world works, and you so have to factor in money at some point when it comes to deciding on a career. On the other hand, it is equally important to do what makes you happy so one must take the time to know themselves and find out what sparks their interest.
Currently, I am working on a degree in Health Science, and I have a mild amount of interest in the subject. I am not entirely sure if I can see myself working in this area, but I know that I can always make a change. Sometimes I feel lost like I do not know what I want to do, and that is all right. There is nothing wrong with feeling confused and unsure of where you are heading. Explore all of your options, take risks when necessary because eighty percent of life is just showing up.
Author Bio: Maluck Nawabi has been an SAC member since my sophomore year of high school. Currently she is a health science major at CSUEB. When Maluck is not busy training for her dream career, she enjoys reading, swimming, and watching classic films.
Volunteering, over time, has transformed from leisure time community service into an effective tool in socially conscious professional networking. Whether you are a student, a newcomer to the town, or just a person looking for direction in your life, volunteering at a local non-profit organization is a fitting way to begin your pursuit. I have been volunteering at GiveTeens20® since March and during the course of time, I have come to know so many wonderful people who have given relevance to my search for a career fit (I am looking at you with gratitude, Kathy!). If you are on the wall about volunteering, this post might help you make the right decision. If you are already volunteering, it would help you reexamine your purpose at your non-profit organization. So why volunteer?
Know Your Community Better: As a recent transplant to the Bay Area, I have learned so much about communities and education from my short time at GT20. I learned of several thriving sub-communities around Fremont (Niles and Newark, for example) I was unaware of until a few months ago. As a part of an education-based non-profit, I also learned about the difficulties the schooling system in the bay faces and the measures that are being taken to address the shortcomings. I now have a different level of respect and appreciation for everything our teachers do to shape the students of our community.
Give Something Back to the Community: Did you know that as a volunteer, you have the power to strengthen so many aspects of your community? By working at the eldercare ward of your local hospital, you would be helping your community’s seniors. By taking up an after school mentoring program, you would be contributing towards the future of the youths. By taking that extra step, you would be contributing towards the development of your town, city and thus, the country!
Give Your Career Some Direction: It doesn’t matter whether you are fresh out of school or just taking a break to figure out a career change. Volunteering in a field that interests you and for an organization with a respectable cause significantly increase your chances of finding what lights you up! As a person who was fascinated by social media marketing, my time at GT20 has helped me research tools and ideas related to my field of interest. This has helped me make a considerable contribution towards improving GT20’s social media presence and improve the value of my resume. There really is nothing to beat the on-the-job knowledge volunteering offers!
Make Friends and Increase Your Network: If you take your volunteering seriously (well, not too seriously, of course!), it would improve your chances of networking with other professionals in your community. How, you ask me? Non-profits host or attend several events every month. Whether it is to raise funds or support other causes, an average non-profit organization sees at least one event a week. If you are an active member of your organization, you would get to attend several of these events and meet people from wide-ranging industries. In my opinion, there is nothing to beat that!
Finally, It is Good For You: Volunteering reduces stress. The shift in focus from your problems to something else would give a bigger and better meaning to your life. Nothing really beats that!!
Vaish is a Volunteer Social Media Strategist for GiveTeens20® and a Growth Hacking Consultant in the Technology industry. In her pass time, she likes to pretend she is reading just to get out of doing household chores!
No one wants to hire a sixteen year old with no experience. This was the hard truth that I was becoming aware of as my job search continued to drag on. I never thought it would be this hard. In my head I always thought that I would just walk into my interview with a big smile and a go-getter attitude, charm the interviewee, and then walk out job in hand. Clearly, this was not the case. Week after week, interview after interview I was getting no response.
Finally, feeling defeated and desperate, I went to Kathy, Founder of GiveTeens20®, education non-profit that helps teens find their career fit; thinking that she was probably the most qualified person to help me with this dilemma. I was correct in going to her. Kathy was quickly able to give me some important advice on what I should be doing.
“Print out your application, take it in, and give it to a manger. This will show initiative and your manager will get to know you before your interview. A lot of times managers don’t even consider online applications from 16 year olds, or they only look at the most recent applicants. That’s why personally taking your application in is so important.”
I did as Kathy explained and went into my interview a week later and received a job offer at the end the interview. I am now happily working at a store that I really love and owe it all to an internship with GiveTeens20® that gave me access to people like Kathy.